Understanding Intrusive Thoughts Through Scripture and Science

keywords
intrusive thoughts, neuroscience, scripture, mental health, compassion, grounding techniques, faith, anxiety, emotional regulation, spiritual wellness

summary
In this episode of Faith Filled Therapy, Jo Hargreaves explores the complex nature of intrusive thoughts, their intersection with neuroscience and scripture, and how to manage them compassionately. She discusses the role of stress, hormonal changes, and the importance of grounding techniques and scripture in finding peace. Jo emphasizes that intrusive thoughts are not a reflection of one's character but rather a natural response of the brain, and she encourages listeners to approach these thoughts with compassion and understanding.

takeaways

• Intrusive thoughts can be distressing and often arise unexpectedly.
• Understanding the neuroscience behind intrusive thoughts can foster self-compassion.
• Stress and hormonal changes can increase the frequency of intrusive thoughts.
• Mindfulness and interrupting negative thought patterns are crucial for mental freedom.
• Grounding techniques, such as deep breathing and scripture meditation, can help manage intrusive thoughts.
• God's compassion is present in our struggles with intrusive thoughts.
• Scripture can serve as a lifeline for grounding and reassurance.
• The brain's response to perceived threats can be misinterpreted as real danger.
• It's important to not attach meaning to intrusive thoughts to prevent them from gaining power.
• You are not broken; there is grace for your mind and nervous system.

Chapters

00:00
Introduction to Intrusive Thoughts

02:56
Understanding Intrusive Thoughts

05:19
The Neuroscience Behind Intrusive Thoughts

07:38
The Role of the Amygdala and Prefrontal Cortex

10:08
Compassion and Reassurance in Managing Thoughts

13:07
Grounding Techniques and Scripture

15:43
The Spiritual Aspect of Intrusive Thoughts

18:03
Finding Peace and Compassion in Faith

21:12
flow-211881.mp3

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Transcript

Jo Hargreaves (00:01)
Hello, welcome back to the Faith Filled Therapy podcast. And today I'm gonna explore the intersection of scripture and neuroscience with regards to intrusive thoughts. Often when I see people record podcasts, they're recording in a beautiful place. It's all very official. They edit it beautifully. I don't edit my podcasts. You're getting this raw. I'm actually sat on my bed.

With windows wide open because it's nice and warm in the UK today, we have somebody downstairs decorating so I can't sit in my usual office. So I'm sat on my bed, windows open, no diffuser today, though later on I will be diffusing something ⁓ to help with the paint fumes because we're having some of our downstairs rooms decorated. So not entirely sure, if you are a regular listener, you'll know that I...

often have something in my disco ball diffuser. I have some nice oils diffusing and I think I'm gonna go, I'm sticking with the citrus vibe because it's summery. I've got some tangerine oil the other day so I'm gonna go for tangerine and I might mix it with a little bit of frankincense actually. So that is what will be in the diffuser today.

But like I said, we're going to talk about ⁓ something that so many of us experience and often I notice we carry it in silence and there's some shame around it. We don't like to ⁓ say what's going on in our minds and we can often feel really condemned. And that is all wrapped up in intrusive thoughts. So by intrusive thoughts, I mean those sudden, disturbing, often they can be quite bizarre thoughts that pop into our mind.

uninvited. I've always had this. I feel like it stepped up a gear a bit when I really gave my life to Jesus. So I think we're going to talk about the intersection between neuroscience and scripture, the natural and the supernatural, because I think there's always an element of ⁓ potentially both going on, but there's a very natural, normal, neuroscience based

understanding of intrusive thoughts that can give us some compassion to ourselves when we experience them. They can help us get out of that threat mode that we can feel. They can put us into fight, flight, freeze. They can just help ground us when we have an understanding of what's going on. So I also remember feeling loads

more intrusive thoughts, particularly after my first baby, like, shall I throw this baby out the window type thoughts? I didn't want to do that. Obviously, I didn't want to throw my baby out the window. ⁓ But those thoughts became ⁓ quite powerful at some points, actually. And now I'm beginning to understand the brain science behind intrusive thoughts. It makes sense that when you are in a transition stage,

maybe feeling slightly more stressed, your resilience is low, your capacity is low, your stress is high, maybe you're exhausted, then your mind is primed much more for intrusive thoughts. So if there's something that you are struggling with, I'm really hoping and praying that you can come away from this podcast feeling a compassion-fueled narrative towards yourself. that's my Alexa setting its alarm. Alexa, stop.

See, I told you these were unfiltered, ⁓ unedited podcasts. like I said, intrusive thoughts are unwanted, involuntary thoughts that can really feel distressing. They can feel irrational, completely out of character. They might be about hurting someone, hurting yourself, blaspheming, losing control. If you have that thing where you're driving along the road and you're like, what if I just, what if I just pull the steering wheel? What if I just...

as you're walking along the bridge, what if I jest? So about losing control. ⁓ They can be about our safety. They can be unkind narratives to ourself. They can be violent. They can be really sexual. ⁓ They can be based around religious thoughts, self-critical. They can be obsessive in nature. But here's the thing that makes them intrusive, that they arrive suddenly. They just pop into your head. Sometimes for me, I can feel them bubbling on the periphery. And if I am...

grounded if I'm in a regulated state, if I'm occupied, I can often just redirect my thoughts to Corinthians 10.5. I did my newsletter about this today, which was interesting because I saw it was a daily Bible reading on YouVersion. But they feel loud, these thoughts. They often don't mean anything about our true self, about our beliefs, about our identity, but they can really

come with a surge of anxiety, guilt, shame. Like I said, sometimes they pop out of nowhere. Sometimes we can feel them bubbling on the periphery and we can take them captive. Other times they just feel like they take us captive. So let's talk about what's happening in the brain. When you experience an intrusive thought, your amygdala, now I've talked about the amygdala before. The amygdala, it's Latin for almond because they're two almond-shaped spheres that sit kind of...

under and behind your ears. It's the brain's fear center. And often when we experience an intrusive thought, our brain's fear center is in overdrive. It's scanning for danger. And remember that when our brains are scanning for danger through neuroception, neuroception is the way that we perceive danger. We do this externally. So we perceive, we look for perceived or actual danger.

externally, but we also do it internally as well. And this could be real or imagined. This is why being transformed by the renewing of your mind, this is why taking your thoughts captive, this is why being still, knowing that God is in control, be still and know that I'm God, Psalm 46. Take your thoughts captive to Corinthians 10.5, be transformed by the renewing of your mind, Romans 12.2.

All of this stuff is so important because otherwise we just go into autopilot and we can often imagine ⁓ scenarios ⁓ that ⁓ are threatening to us. And our brain has the same response to a real threatening scenario as it does to a perceived one that we're making up in our head. This is why we have to be mindful of our thoughts. We have to be conscious.

Otherwise, we just kind of go through life, not being conscious of our thoughts, ⁓ allowing our default mode network of our brain to kind of take the lead. And the default mode network, often when we're in default mode, we go to fear based thoughts, we go to catastrophizing thoughts, comparison thoughts. So being mindful of interrupting your thoughts is going to be key for freedom. I need to do this. I've found that

⁓ if I do not take my thoughts captive, I really end up in a negative place. I am not naturally predisposed to positive thinking. I have to work really, really hard. I have to work really, really hard. excuse me. I'm going to edit that bit out. edit this bit out. I have to work hard.

to manage my mind. Some people are just much better at it. They're wired with a much more positive predisposition. I have to work hard. I feel like I don't have to work hard on gratitude. Gratitude comes fairly naturally to me, but I have to work hard to not catastrophize, to not overthink, and to not just always frame my life with the worst case scenario. That's why I lean into gratitude, which thankfully, like I said, comes quite easily. So the amygdala sounds the alarm. Sounds the alarm to your brain.

body catches up with what your brain's telling it, something might be wrong. The prefrontal cortex, which is the rational part of your brain. Also remember, if you're listening to this and you're under 25, or if you're listening to this and you are neurodivergent, your prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until you're 25 plus, and later on if you're neurodivergent. Also, if you've experienced any brain injury, I was speaking to a precious friend of mine the other day, whose son had encephalitis.

and experienced damage to his prefrontal cortex. So we always need to tell ourselves a more compassionate story if that's our experience. But the rational part of our brain, the PFC, normally will filter out these thoughts. It works as a brilliant filter. You also have something called, hmm, I've forgotten what it's called now. RAS is what it's called for short. It is the reticular activating system. That's it.

That sits at your brain stem really and acts as a filter for your thoughts. So your brain does have filtering mechanisms, but if you're tired, I mean, who isn't tired? Honestly, if you're not tired, let me know how you're not tired. I don't know whether it is, well, of course, my eldest is about to turn 12 and we've pretty much had 12 years of interrupted sleep from one child or another. So that's probably why I'm tired.

I feel like life is tiring. I'd love to get to a place where I'm saying, yeah, I'm not tired. But anyway, that's just my little digression. If you're not tired, let me know. Let me know your secret. So yeah, the rational part of your brain will filter these thoughts. But if you're tired, if you're stressed, if you're anxious, basically, if you're living in 2025, if you're tired, you're stressed, you're anxious. If you're hormonally vulnerable, because of certain times of

month. Remember women are cyclical ⁓ on a 28 day average, 28 day cycle. I know that's not everybody's story. Men are cyclical on a 24 hour cycle. ⁓ Also women, huge transitions in women's seasons and states ⁓ from puberty to cycling to perimenopause to menopausal to postmenopausal. Also, do you know what I learned the other day? This is so redemptive.

of hormonal states that when you are in going through hormonal shifts, it pushes your brain into a place of being more neuroplastic, which means it's able to shift and change. Women's bodies and brains are constantly shifting and changing, but that means that we're able to rewire our brain towards healthy, holy thoughts. So when you are shifting cycles and it feels like a real kind of clunky gear change,

There is a redemptive feature that your brain is increasingly neuroplastic. So if you can focus on scripture, if you can lean into gratitude in those times, it gets wired into your brain more easily. How wonderful is that? But yes, tired, stressed, hormonally vulnerable, that filter gets weaker. And so your brain starts off firing thoughts quickly, like mental smoke alarms to assess the threat. This is all about perceived threat and perceived threat safety.

It is not about sin. It's not about prophetic. If you get those kind of terrible thoughts, terrible things are gonna happen. This isn't prophecy. It's not a secret desire coming to the surface. If you have an overtly sexual or blasphemous thought, it's a protective glitch in your brain's wiring. It's like your mind pulling the fire alarm because somebody lit a candle, ⁓ lit a birthday candle.

Somebody's just lighting a small candle and your brain is going into full on overreaction mode. And if you have been environments where fear is normalized, high control religion, whether you've experienced trauma, maybe there's been a narrative of perfectionism, your system might be especially sensitive. Your threat system, especially sensitive, especially primed to detect danger, even when there isn't any.

And I love that analogy, it really helps me. Somebody's just lit a candle, but my brain is thinking that there's a full on fire going on. So in these moments, when we get into that self-critical narrative and we berate ourselves, we fuel the fire. However, if we can begin to find the code to turn off the fire alarm, if we can begin to find the fire extinguisher, we can soothe ourselves. Things like...

grounding yourselves, breath work, finding a scripture that brings you peace. I have a tattoo on my right wrist of a feather to remind me of Psalm 91. He will cover you with his feathers. I look at it and remind myself. Now, I feel like a false teacher because I haven't done that for a while. I used to, but I will increasingly do that now I've reminded myself. There's scriptures that can help.

ground us, us, feel safe. You might need to place your hand on your chest. Breathe in deeply. You know that when you make your exhale longer than your inhale, it helps you shift from the threat part of your brain and your nervous system into a more grounded part. Psalm 46 that I mentioned at the beginning, be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I love that

beautiful part of scripture, because if we can be still, it offers our body some reassurance we're safe. If we can breathe deeply, it offers our body some reassurance it's okay. We're safe, there's no threat. We're not running from anything. It helps explain to our brain there's no external danger and it helps calm our body. So there's no indication of internal danger. So be still, stop rushing.

Take a breath, put your hand on your chest. Remember that God is in control. Take yourself to a scripture that grounds you, helps you feel safe. Be slow to anger, abounding in love, full of compassion. Get yourself into Romans. Nothing can separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Angels, demons, death, life, my paraphrase here, intrusive thoughts. Nothing can separate you from the love of God that's in Christ Jesus.

All of that will help.

All of that will help ground you. Imagine if you're having a intrusive thought or you're in a cycle of intrusive thoughts and you start berating yourself and fearfully allow that fearful narrative to come into play. I have committed the unforgivable sin. You the best thing I've ever heard, if you are fearful, you've committed the unforgivable sin, you haven't.

the unforgivable sin is about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and not caring, not being bothered, being so detached. If it bothers you, if you're worried, if you're stressed. By the way, that's not a full theological explanation, so don't fully take that as my full exgesis of that passage. But this is just me saying, ⁓ if you care, if you're worried, if you're repentant, if you're panicky even, you haven't, because you're caring, you're bothered, you're wanting to... ⁓

You're noticing your narrative and you're wanting to shift it. But there is a purpose in these. It might surprise you to know that intrusive thoughts aren't trying to torture you. There is though, the spiritual element of things. There is a spiritual side of things where I think, yes, we can do the natural side of things, but there is a time to say, I rebuke that thought in Jesus' name. I refuse to think that thought. Now, I would leave it up to you and your own discernment and your own conversation with the Holy Spirit to work out.

what is a natural thought, what is a supernatural thought, but I think everything's just so intersected, isn't it, that we can't separate these things. ⁓ But they're not here to torture us. They're actually the brain's way of saying, are we okay? Are we safe? Is everything okay? It's all about needing reassurance. I know there's times where I just desperately need reassurance. Thankfully, I have a husband who is steady as you like. He's just so steady.

I'm up, down, backwards, forwards, here, there, everywhere. He just remains the same. And often I have to say to him, his name's Dan. Dan, am I okay? Is everything okay? Can you just reassure me? Is everything okay? I need that reassurance. That reassurance was also something that eluded me as a child. If you didn't get reassurance, if you didn't get that co-regulation, it's very likely that your amygdala is more active and needs more reassurance.

Your amygdala is scanning for threat more to keep you safe. It wants to know, it okay to relax? Am I safe? It's like a faulty safety check. And it's especially common when we're experiencing anxiety, we've experienced trauma, maybe we've got post-traumatic stress disorder, OCD, and also those with highly sensitive nervous systems, highly sensitive people, people who would put themselves on a spectrum of neurodivergence. And spiritually speaking, God knows this.

He knows how we're designed. He sees your wiring. He knows how your story, your stress, your biology, your beliefs, how they all intersect. And I just believe he looks at us with compassion. I love, and I've mentioned this before, I'm sure of Jesus entering Jerusalem and just seeing the chaos and the brokenness and the mess and having so much compassion. I feel like God has compassion. I don't just feel it actually. I read it in scripture.

particularly in the Psalms. I think it's the Psalm 103, but I can't remember off the top of my head telling us that God is slow to anger, abounding in love, full of compassion. Now that's gonna be hard for some of us to get our heads around if that has not been our experience or if we've been in high control religious environments.

But scripture reminds us again and again of God's kindness, his love, his compassion. In Colossians, he clothes us with compassion. There's a verse about being crowned with compassion. So how do we respond? How do we respond when these thoughts hit? Talked about grounding. Number two, if we talk about grounding as the first one, ground yourself, create a compassionate narrative, but ground yourself.

Breathe your breath, slow down, get in touch with your body, hand on your chest. You might wanna cross your arms over your chest in a butterfly hug and just squeeze all of that. Squeezing in the weight on the shoulders helps regulate the nervous system. Number two, don't attach meaning. You might have a thought that you would think is intrusive and attach meaning to it, whereas somebody else might have the thought, just let it come and go and notice it and go, that was weird.

Often thoughts gain traction when we attach meaning. The more we push, the more power it gains. Instead, like I said, come back to your body in the present moment. Take a deep breath, feel your feet on the floor, name five things you're grateful for, pray, meditate on a scripture. When we meditate on scripture, we, over time, we get a thickening of the prefrontal cortex, which means actually it's protection against intrusive thoughts and ⁓

a more kind of neurobiological ability to ground ourselves. ⁓ Yeah, all of these things will shift you out of your threat system and into your grounding system. And then next, use a grounding verse or scripture like I talked about. I love Isaiah 26, three, you will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast because they trust in you. Now you might have a wrestle here. You might have a wrestle between the intrusive thought and the scripture.

just keep coming back to it with a compassionate narrative, grounding yourself. And the 2 Corinthians 10-5 that we notice, we take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ. These verses are not just weapons, they're lifelines for your nervous system as well. They're just powerful, beautiful lifelines. So here's the heart of it. God is not surprised by your thoughts. He knows them before you think them. He's known every thought that you ever thought.

⁓ And he still chose to die for you. Romans tells us as we were still sinners, he still chose to die for us. He doesn't panic when your brain spirals. He sees deeper into your wiring, your weariness and state of your nervous system. Psalm 139 says, perceive my thoughts from afar before a word is on my tongue. You Lord know it completely.

In this episode, if something's stirred in you, I want you to know that you're not broken, you're not malfunctioning, there's not something inherently wrong or bad about you, you're not alone, you're not disqualified from peace or faith because of the way your brain works or what your brain sometimes throws at you. There is grace for your mind, there is compassion for your nervous system, and there is a way home.

grounded to the peace of God that surpasses all understanding which looks in a physical body like a regulated nervous system. So just to conclude you are loved you read it all the way throughout scripture you are safe just the name of the Lord the Lord is a refuge he is an ever-present help in times of need that's just reminded me of Psalm 121

I lift up my eyes to the mountains. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. And you know, when you're in a loop, in a thought spiral, intrusive thoughts, a very act of lifting your eyes and looking up can help interrupt that cycle. It's a short term, immediate thing that can happen. I look up, I lift my eyes to the mountain. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord.

the very act of lifting your eyes. How beautiful. I actually feel emotional at that. Just how beautiful, how profound, how prophetic just the act of lifting our eyes is. So you're not alone. You're loved, you're safe, you're held. And thank you for being here today. If you do want to go deeper, keep an eye out for the newsletter in your... ⁓

Inbox, if you are subscribed to my free newsletter on Substack, just go onto Substack ⁓ and put in the Faith-Filled Therapy, register for my newsletter, you'll get a whole load of resources. And if you want to go even deeper, paid subscribers get access to weekly reflection tools, journal prompts, monthly webinar spaces, a monthly connection call, book group, journal room. It's 22 pounds a month, five pounds or so a week.

and incredibly worth it if you're wanting to pursue wholeness and holiness. So bless you, I really hope and pray this is helpful. If you think it would be helpful for somebody else, please do send it to them. And may you know, as 1 Thessalonians 5.23 tells us that Jesus is making us holy and whole in our spirit, soul and body. Amen.